ClearAyes said:
"Here's an interesting topic that has had enough at other places. Let's not give any names, it isn't necessary. But, when is joke over the line? Does anything go? Is it OK to, even indirectly, make fun of the aftermath of genocide? If somebody is offended, is an apology due?
My opinion is that there is a (very fine) line. I'll laugh at a lot of what is considered un-P.C. Bill Maher is one of my favorite commentators. But there are words and situations I personally avoid. ie. I'll joke about death, but not about murder. There is nothing wrong with considering the sensitivities of your potential audience."
I think there is definitely a line. As you said, ClearAyes, it may be a very fine one. When I first read the post that so offended the anon, I was not quick to assume an offensive intent. There is a different and altogether legitimate association one could make. While I do feel that the person badly over-reacted. We are not mind -readers. If the person hadn't spoken up we might never have realized that the original post could be perceived as highly offensive. While I think it was fine for them to share his feeling, they might have done so in a more tactful fashion. Never-the-less, whether or not the intention of the original poster was to inflict deliberate pain, it would have been nice for them to apologize upon realizing that they had.
10 comments:
Larry Said:
Clear Ayes:
May I tackle that one? And I don't mind at all naming names. Over on that other corner, Dennis appears to be, as with the pigs in Orwell's Animal Farm, "more equal" than us other animals. Sort of like when Tricky Dick Nixon said if the president does it isn't wrong.He does apparently possess some co-blogger status, seniority, and superiority. No big deal really. Most of is are content with our supporting actor status, even if the Oscar always goes to........ Someone else. Having said all that, Dennis did not in fact make any joke about genocide. His joke, a little tasteless and a little racist, equated the presence of Indians and reservations with the presence of casinos. There was no mention of the Trail of Years, Cherokees, or genocide until anonymous fired his shot, which appeared while I was posting my (serious) reply to CC's question. Unless you assume that he knew of the T of T, and that his self-described bad joke was really a clever reference to it, I don't believe Dennis is guilty of anything other than lame ethnic humor. I have a friend who is full blood Cherokee, and he would kick your ass over a real insult. I don't think this reached that level. But I'm staying out of it over there for now.
Windhover,
Now I feel so silly for all the gymnastics I did trying to not mention any names. Heehee.
Gee... Just as a point of fact, I don't think any offense was meant by the post that brought my question to mind. My original question really didn't have a lot to do with what was posted on the other blog, except as a jumping off point. What I was curious about is what is the line for other people.
I brought up Bill Maher because he often says things that are offensive to a lot of people. Is it OK because he is a professional comic? Or should the line change according to whom you are speaking?
I think we as a society have come full circle on the P.C. issue. Up until very recently, every minority, every ethnicity, every religion had to be tiptoed around, in order not to offend. Nowadays, I see a "to hell with P.C." backlash trend. "I'm gonna say whatever I want, whenever I want, and if somebody is offended, then, to hell with them".
It seems to me to be a little...the only word I can think of is "graceless". Politeness is one of the hallmarks of civilization. I guess that is why they call it civility.
LOL, I just remembered the song Class from Chicago.
I was a bit concerned that perhaps I did not address your primary point well enough.
As I wrote in the upper right-hand corner of this comments page, I have no intention of editing or moderating anything posted here. Does that mean that I think it is just fine to say anything at all ... no.
However, if somebody says something that is flat out cruel, stupid or both, then that person will have to take their lumps if someone else calls them out and points out their idiocy.
Not too long ago, I took a cheap shot at Elton John, asking if he wasn't the true 'faerie queen'. The only thing I regret about that is that I was unable to find a video to link to of him performing, "I'm so pretty!" It was just in good fun and I made that clear by following up with an apology and a declaration that I am a huge fan of his.
An example of an incident that was way over the line was (former Steinfeld funny man) Michael Richards' decidedly unfunny tirade in that LA comedy club last year. He's lucky he made it out of their alive.
I agree with you, ClearAyes, that politeness is a hallmark of civilization and it's always better to be more civilized than less.
HAHAHA. Now I've got to see that movie.
One day, back when I was in high school, my mom told me how proud she was of me. We lived just three blocks from the school and I used to carry my trumpet with me as I walked home everyday. One day, this old guy who lived along the route struck up a conversation with me about my horn and after that I would chat with him periodically. Well, I don't know how he knew where I lived or who my mother was, but somehow he had run into her and told her that he thought I was nicest kid from the school that he had ever met and that, living close to the school, he had met plenty. I was happy that I had made my mother proud of me. I guess I had class.
I can't help but wonder what that old guy would think if he knew me now, though.
Clear Ayes:
I hope I did not give you the impression that I was critiquing your statements about theappropriateness of certain types of jokes. Or for that matter that I was
Criticizing you in any way. I can not imagine myself doing such a thing. Although I was born and mostly raised 4 city blocks from the Ohio River in Maysville, Ky., I have always considered myself Southern. In my part of the world, the word used to describe what you called 'politeness' is 'graciousness'. I have found you, around on
the other 'corner', to be most gracious. If words have any meaning, and I believe they must, what I have learned about you in my reading 'over there' is that you are thoughtful, well read and traveled, and importantly, tolerant of others' choices and feelings. I have heard it said that none of us should tolerate intolerance. I don't.
So, let me apologize for even the slightest offense, and please pass any comments I might make, here or there, through the filter of this post. I think very highly of you and many others 'over there', and value your opinions. And, FWIW, I agree with your crossing the line comment and most likely with where the line is drawn. Windhover aka Larry.
PMT:
Deleted post was a duplicate. I need some new cuss words to master this #¥*!$&@ Iphone. Sorry
Windhover
PromiseMeThis and Windover, You don't have to be concerned about offending me with upfront opinions and comments. I wasn't referring to anybody, just society in general.
Just said goodnight to our newly widowed friend. It was her first evening out on her own. We thought she might want to share a salad and a dish of pasta, so we invited her to our house for dinner and a DVD. She "misted up" a couple of times, but overall I think she enjoyed herself.
PMT, You haven't seen Chicago? If you like edgy musicals, it is not to be missed.
Have a good night.
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